A brief summary of comments by the committee participants, as heard at the meeting. Committee membership included 5 Utah Senators, 6 Reps, 5 from law enforcement, 4 business orgs :
Gov Herbert Immigration Committee 20 Jul 2010
Click here to view meeting
Introduction by Gov. Herbert (Gov.'s Introductory Statement)
90 sec. each by committee participant, Palmer DePaulis, moderator
Pamela Atkinson, Community advocate we need civility, not hatred - help one another
Lane Beattie, SLCC - 6100 statewide business Federal issue, support border security need comp reform, we are not border state.
Curt Bramble, Senator NCSL talked of bipartisan immigration reform proposal by Sen. Shumer and Graham - Likes AG plan
Ken Bullock, ULCT the problem needs to be defined
Chris Burbank, SLC Police Narrow position local enforcement, reform needed Don't expand police enforcement weakens support community, it's a civil issue, not criminal.
Dave Clark, Representative Need statesmen like solution, Fed Failure, states acting 333 laws last year, rule of law
Peter Coroon, SLCo Mayor represents 1 million people, we enforce laws, jail full fed needs to act
David Armstrong, commissioner of Public Safety need safety for all people, frustrated with limited resources, many laws passed SB81 excellent example, but need $$$
Brad Dee, Representative we must look out for next generation, rhetoric shows system reform needed; my eyes were opened during the interim immigration committee meetings across the state.
John Dougall, Representative Legal Immigration must be addressed, fed derelict in border security, we shouldn't be questioning all the people, protect freedom of association
John Greiner, Ogden Police disagree that illegal immigration is only a civil violation, 2006 IACP white paper, local enforcement decision
Michael Waddoups, Senator Nation of immigrants, Oppressive govt created nation of laws. art 2 sec8,9 fed gov failed, states must act, not a race issue - need repent and return policy
Terry Keefe, Layton Police, UT police chiefs assn enforce laws, criminal misdemeanor
Carl Wimmer, Representative Constitution, fed failure (not even trying); states must act, state sovereignty; compassion seems restricted to those already here
Carlos Linares, Hispanic Council enforcement alone does not work, need reform, dignity of humans not solved by fence, no more enforcement- need study
David Litvack, Representative UT has comprehensive approach, even 'progressive,' local DREAM act, Driver Privilege card; concern in community, racial diverse, need open discourse
Pat Jones, Senator Has no answer, fed responsibility, must employ legally, interviews show hispanics are good worker; Spanish prayers are OK
Stan Rasmussen, Sutherland we're listening to clarify our stance, fed gov failure, need for workers in UT, unique challenge in Utah, fellow humans
Luz Robles, Senator Fed failure, no $$ to enforce, accountability by employers, need to integrate
Ross Romero, Senator Thanks for 1300 list action, Obama troops on border, Negative debate by anti hispanics, no t them vs. us
Dee Rowland, Catholic Diocese need civility, bros and sis, we don't ask status, living in shadows, democracy
Steve Sandstorm, Representative Working on AZ style law, wish we didn't have to; laws give freedom, Illegal immigration threatens laws, I'm listening
Mark Shurleff, AG History of joining of railroad golden spike by Chinese and Irish (not legal at time); comprehensive plan proposal
Kirk Smith, Utah Sheriff Assn (Washington co) People are saying ;do something; no leaders at fed level in SS and immigration, immigration process in disarray; unfunded mandates
Tony Yapias, Proyecto Latino thanks for work on 1300 list, we can’t do the fed's job' we want a change, not amnesty, just jobs and fairness for all.
Doug Wright, KSL humbled, never seen an issue like this in 42 years of broadcasting, Email saying remove illegals NOW; amazing ideas today
Sean Reyes, Attorney fed gov failed; local issue not about citizenship and naturalization; need to get out of shadow, pay taxes; legality does not mean citizenship
Randy Parker, Farm Bureau need workers, fed failure, Guest worker H2 bureaucratic, lost 300 lambs due to delay with workers
Dave Layton, Construction need legal workers, hispanics good high value employees.
Part 2 Discussion Economics, border, enforcement, et al "Let's talk about Guest workers"
Parker 1960's Bracero worked, we need seasonal workers (1)
Beattie Previous proposal (SCR1) they are here, not leaving; need to legalize (2) without amnesty - citizenship later (3)
?? Can we have guest worker without amnesty?
Robles Amnesty not up to the state ; they are living here, (4)
Waddoups, Who are these unemployed 7%, do we really need more workers? (5)
Wimmer Robles is right, we can't give amnesty, must leave the country first, others who would love jobs, 7.5% unemployment welfare ck vs work
Romero need more farm employees, do we need immigrants, not amnesty most who came here were legal and overstayed visa (6), they are participating
Atkinson Guest workers OK, but 3 million people have applied for visa, some waiting 20 years family - amnesty a disservice to those
Shurtleff I'll have to defend whatever law is passed, Utah needs control of workers, we need study of Nuevo Leon, they have good program
Dougall agree with Wimmer on amnesty, but immigration not an exclusive fed right (7)
Sandstorm Guest worker intriguing, if guest went home, Utah program would entice illegals
Clark Crisis, push back on fed on immigration
Rowland Guest workers not going to happen (soon?) must pressure fed for immigration reform (8)
Yapias, We need Shumer/Graham amnesty I don’t want more people either
Rasmussen Tenth amendment, states rights, we need permit for those already here. Leave and return will not work - economic loss
Wright Perception on amnesty si we need a pound of flesh Utah unemployment was effectively 0% a while ago, we are talking about real people here, I don’t understand the need to return
Bell Can you adopt a Guest workers program without Amnesty? Or without Federal approval?
Bramble Four planks of Shumer; Graham = Border/ biometrics/ guest worker/ deal with illegals; prior resolution ignored, 50 state policies not viable
Robles we’ve talked with fed, this will push them to action
Wednesday, July 21, 2010
Tuesday, July 20, 2010
Comments for the Governor's Immigration Committee
I did get an invite to attend the committee, not as a participant, but as an observer, so I could "listen and comment at a latter date.
Here's what I might have said, if given the chance:
Illegal aliens in UTAH
This whole issue may be about people, about individuals - but it is also about principles. It may also be about compassion - but it should be about compassion for ALL people - not just those who are here and ahve successfully evaded the law. Equal compassion - under the established rules.
The United States is based on the rule of law. Our governmental foundation is the Constitution. John Adams said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
We are seemingly becoming a less moral people and a wise men noted a couple centuries ago, a free country "can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." We are now in the process of importing people to aid in that majority leading in the wrong direction. FAIR estimates that illegal immigration in Utah alone cast $453 million annually.
Obeying laws is part of the basis of morality. If we continue to fail to enforce laws, if we allow everyone to pick and choose which laws to follow, then we have basically established an anarchical society.
Amnesty, or a reward for successfully evading or avoiding a law, can only encourage MORE evasion and corruption of our once obedient and moral society. Rewarding illegal behavior simply encoruages more of that behavior.
We tried a blanket amnesty in 1984 - it did NOT stop illegal immigration. We have had several selective amnesties since that time. They have simply encouraged more people to come the these United States, supposedly for freedom, in hopes of future amnesties - at the same time destroying that freedom by bits and pieces by igonring that fundamental principle of the rule of law.
Federal law prohibits aiding, abetting and encouraging people to enter or reside in this country. Too many of our policies do just that.
We talk of compassion, but seem to forget the millions who are trying to abide by our legal framework or who would love to come to this country, but can not because they are unable to simply cross the border or overstay a visa. When we talk of compassion, we must remember those who are NOT seen, and not give priority to those who have been successful in ignoring the law.
We should "encourage" those who have been allowed to participate in the benefits of our guaranteed freedoms (and our taxpayer provided education) to return to their homeland and help their own countries develop the proper principles of liberty and freedom.
In our earlier history a more open border and simple immigration policy may have been practical. While we have been straying from freedom principles, even in this country with our Constitutional guaranteed and recognition of individual rights, we still retain enough understanding to be that shining beacon on the hill, emanating that light of liberty to be encouraged and adopted throughout this world. Our detour onto the welfare state path has also created an incompatibility with open borders.
We need to work to export Liberty, not import poverty; to explain and teach Freedom to all the world. This is our destiny as a nation, not to corrupt our system with the failed ideas that government can provide all things to all people. Minimizing government may allow us to return to that openness and acceptance of those who are truly trying to WORK.
Yes, we can adopt a civil tone and work together to restore these proper principles by following the already established and continue the quest of compassion for ALL people to attain the blessings of liberty.
Here's what I might have said, if given the chance:
Illegal aliens in UTAH
This whole issue may be about people, about individuals - but it is also about principles. It may also be about compassion - but it should be about compassion for ALL people - not just those who are here and ahve successfully evaded the law. Equal compassion - under the established rules.
The United States is based on the rule of law. Our governmental foundation is the Constitution. John Adams said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
We are seemingly becoming a less moral people and a wise men noted a couple centuries ago, a free country "can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." We are now in the process of importing people to aid in that majority leading in the wrong direction. FAIR estimates that illegal immigration in Utah alone cast $453 million annually.
Obeying laws is part of the basis of morality. If we continue to fail to enforce laws, if we allow everyone to pick and choose which laws to follow, then we have basically established an anarchical society.
Amnesty, or a reward for successfully evading or avoiding a law, can only encourage MORE evasion and corruption of our once obedient and moral society. Rewarding illegal behavior simply encoruages more of that behavior.
We tried a blanket amnesty in 1984 - it did NOT stop illegal immigration. We have had several selective amnesties since that time. They have simply encouraged more people to come the these United States, supposedly for freedom, in hopes of future amnesties - at the same time destroying that freedom by bits and pieces by igonring that fundamental principle of the rule of law.
Federal law prohibits aiding, abetting and encouraging people to enter or reside in this country. Too many of our policies do just that.
We talk of compassion, but seem to forget the millions who are trying to abide by our legal framework or who would love to come to this country, but can not because they are unable to simply cross the border or overstay a visa. When we talk of compassion, we must remember those who are NOT seen, and not give priority to those who have been successful in ignoring the law.
We should "encourage" those who have been allowed to participate in the benefits of our guaranteed freedoms (and our taxpayer provided education) to return to their homeland and help their own countries develop the proper principles of liberty and freedom.
In our earlier history a more open border and simple immigration policy may have been practical. While we have been straying from freedom principles, even in this country with our Constitutional guaranteed and recognition of individual rights, we still retain enough understanding to be that shining beacon on the hill, emanating that light of liberty to be encouraged and adopted throughout this world. Our detour onto the welfare state path has also created an incompatibility with open borders.
We need to work to export Liberty, not import poverty; to explain and teach Freedom to all the world. This is our destiny as a nation, not to corrupt our system with the failed ideas that government can provide all things to all people. Minimizing government may allow us to return to that openness and acceptance of those who are truly trying to WORK.
Yes, we can adopt a civil tone and work together to restore these proper principles by following the already established and continue the quest of compassion for ALL people to attain the blessings of liberty.
Thursday, July 15, 2010
An Open Letter to Utah Gov. Herbert
Gov. Herbert,
I understand you have scheduled your "immigration committee" meeting for 20 July to discuss how to solve the illegal immigration problem in Utah.
SL Trib: 2 July “We’re going to have an inclusive group of stakeholders talk in a respectful fashion,” the governor said during an interview on “Pulso Latino” radio program.
The governor said he hopes to have members from various minority communities, the business community, various faith-based organizations and legislators, including Rep. Stephen Sandstrom and Sen. Luz Robles.
While I am not a "member of a minority community," or a leader of a "faith-based organization," or a legislator; I am a Utah resident AND a US Citizen, familiar with the issue and I have studied and worked on this issue for quite some time and would be happy to provide some input.
I'm sure there are many other similarly situated "stakeholders" who would be glad to participate.
I'm sure there are many other similarly situated "stakeholders" who would be glad to participate.
PS: I might also remind you of the platform plank on immigration passed by OUR Republican Party recently.
The List of 1300 Illegal Aliens
Somehow a list of purported illegal aliens is deserving of top billing on all the local TV networks - WHY? e.g. FOX SLTrib
(It's even NATIONAL news now) e.g. ABC
A few Questions:
Do illegal aliens deserve more protection than normal citizens?
Complete Voting Lists are not difficult to obtain.
But we can NOT release a list of people who signed petitions for referenda.
On the Utah State web site https://secure.utah.gov/datarequest/index.html, anyone can, with relative ease, find these lists :
Includes Business Name & Address, Registered Officers, Principals, Partners, Registered Agents
Professions Licensed in Utah Includes Name, License type, license status
Or here are a few more: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/listinfo.cgi/gis-u or how about telemarketers http://www.consumerprotection.utah.gov/consumerinfo/lists.html
We can issue Driver Privilege Cards ONLY for illegal aliens, but we are not allowed to see THAT list.
If the list contains SSN's, how did the purported illegal alien get one? If they have one, is that not ID fraud?
Or were they ITIN's?
How does Mr. Yapias have access to the list?
Is the Driver Privilege Card list available?
If someone receives the list, can they post it on the web?
If an illegal cries in the wilderness, are they still quoted by the media?
Is the release of this list protected by the UT Whistle Blower statute, exposing violation of Federal Law? (e.g. aiding abetting illegals)
Ut Code 67-21-3. Reporting of governmental waste or violations of law -- Employer action -- Exceptions.
(1) (a) An employer may not take adverse action against an employee because the employee, or a person authorized to act on behalf of the employee, communicates in good faith the existence of any waste of public funds, property, or manpower, or a violation or suspected violation of a law, rule, or regulation adopted under the law of this state, a political subdivision of this state, or any recognized entity of the United States.
Is the release of this list protected by the UT Whistle Blower statute, exposing violation of Federal Law? (e.g. aiding abetting illegals)
Ut Code 67-21-3. Reporting of governmental waste or violations of law -- Employer action -- Exceptions.
(1) (a) An employer may not take adverse action against an employee because the employee, or a person authorized to act on behalf of the employee, communicates in good faith the existence of any waste of public funds, property, or manpower, or a violation or suspected violation of a law, rule, or regulation adopted under the law of this state, a political subdivision of this state, or any recognized entity of the United States.
I guess "Illegal Alien" is now a protected class - perhaps, soon, it will be an endangered species. (No, that is NOT a call for vigilantism)
Saturday, July 10, 2010
Illegal Alien Costs in UTAH $453,000,000
FAIR Releases First-of-its-Kind Comprehensive Study of Federal, State and Local Costs of Illegal Immigration
"(Washington, D.C July 6, 2010) A new study released today by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) estimates that illegal immigration now costs federal and local taxpayers $113 billion a year. The report, The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers, is the most comprehensive analysis of how much the estimated 13 million illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children cost federal, state and local governments."
******* ********* **********
The annual cost to Utah taxpayers is estimated at a total of $453 MILLION or about $162 for every individual in the state or $480 per Household.
Here's the cost breakdown from FAIR:
K12 Education | Students | cost per Student | Tot $(M) | LEP Students | Cost per Student | Sub Total | Total $$$ |
Utah | 26,922 | $8,885 | $239.2 | 21,655 | $2,221 | $48.1 | $287,000,000 |
Instate Tuition | # 4 yr | # 2 yr | 4 yr benefit | 2 yr benefit | |||
Utah | 90 | 410 | $10,354 | $4,920 | $2,900,000 | ||
Medical | Emerg. Births | Medicaid | Med Ins US Born | Med Ins SCHIP | |||
Utah | $6.8 | $50.9 | $8.1 | $1.8 | $67,600,000 | ||
Justice | Police | Judicial | Corrections | SCAAP | |||
Utah | $20.8 | $11.2 | $23.7 | -$1.9 | $53,800,000 | ||
Child Care | Per child | #children | CCDF | # TANF | TANF | ||
Utah | $2,135 | 5,550 | $11.9 | 2,574 | $3.0 | $14,800,000 | |
Education | Medical | Justice | Welfare | General | Total | ||
TOTAL | $290.2 | $67.6 | $54.0 | $14.8 | $26.5 | $453,000,000 |
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